Industry 5.0 is the next phase of the industrial automation revolution where humans collaborate with AI-powered robots and devices. Tim Jaques breaks down how Industry 5.0 builds upon the foundations of Industry 4.0, transitioning from pure automation to a more human-centered approach, integrating technology with sustainability, ethical decision-making, and advanced customization. Hear why project managers should care about Industry 5.0’s shift from economic to societal value and its impact on their roles.
Chapters
00:00 … Intro
02:58 … Industry 5.0
04:39 … The Impact on Project Management
06:36 … Industry 4.0 vs. 5.0
08:54 … Cobots
10:08 … Core Components of Industry 5.0
13:17 … Ethical Decision-Making and Sustainability
14:29 … Customization and Sustainability
19:27 … Emerging AI Project Tools
23:18 … Innovative Mindset for Project Managers
27:41 … Adding Value as a PM
30:35 … Upskilling for Industry 5.0
35:39 … International Project Management Association
37:40 … IPMA Certifications
42:36 … How to Get Involved
43:26 … Find Out More
45:17 … Closing
Intro
TIM JAQUES: But also, I think there’s a very big opportunity mindset that we can take on this. And the opportunity for project managers in particular is I think that the world right now is obsessed with “new.” The new things are coming online faster than we can blink our eyes at. And project managers who can continue to work in those areas, who can evolve in those areas, are going to be rewarded. There’s going to be a lot of work for us as we understand how those technologies and humans interact.
WENDY GROUNDS: Hello, and welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers. We’re so glad you’ve joined us today. I’m Wendy Grounds, and sitting right next to me is Bill Yates.
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So, our guest today is Tim Jaques, and we’re so thrilled to talk to him. He has over 25 years of experience in business transformation, and a wealth of knowledge to share. He’s a serial entrepreneur and has grown multiple companies and continues to push the boundaries of innovation. His work spans some of the most complex and dynamic organizations in the world including Siemens, the U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs, NASA, and more. Tim is also the current president of the International Project Management Association USA, and he recently chaired its annual Global Research Conference.
BILL YATES: Yeah, Wendy, we’re so fortunate to have this conversation with Tim and appreciate his input and sharing his insights. Yes, he is the current president of IPMA USA. We’ll talk more about that. That’ll be the last portion of the episode. At the beginning we want to go deeply into Industry 5.0 and talk about that; and specifically, okay, what does that mean to us project managers?
WENDY GROUNDS: So, join us. Let’s get ready to learn what kind of work really matters in the era of Industry 5.0. Hi, Tim. Welcome to Manage This. We’re excited to talk with you today.
TIM JAQUES: I’m so happy to be here. Thank you, Wendy and Bill.
Industry 5.0
WENDY GROUNDS: So, there’s a couple of things we want to ask you about. The one is Industry 5.0, and the other is the IPMA. We want to learn a little bit more about that. But we’re going to dig into Industry 5.0 first. Can you give us kind of a broad explanation? What is Industry 5.0, and how does this impact project managers?
TIM JAQUES: Yeah. Over the last 150 years or so we have been going through various industrial ages. And they’ve been aptly named probably in the last 30 years Industry 1.0, which was really like steam engines, mechanical; Industry 2.0, which really got into production lines and electricity; Industry 3.0, which got us into the age of computing in the ‘70s; Industry 4.0, which got us into automation, and that’s really happened in the 2000s. And we are quickly finding ourselves on the cusp of this thing called Industry 5.0.
Industry 5.0 is a difference from 4.0. It leverages all of the things that have come before it; right? But it is a focus now on sort of the harmonious side-by-side workings of humans and machines. And so, we can see this in things like, you know, VR, virtual reality. And we’ll talk some more about this as we get into it, but things like this concept of cobots, which are robotics that are then designed to be working with humans nearby. So, these kinds of things are at a real evolution in both the technology and the approach used going forward.
The Impact on Project Management
BILL YATES: Okay, I’m going to ask you the biggest question that I had when I was thinking about this. I’m sitting in the seat of my listeners and thinking, okay, I’m a project manager. Why do I care? What does Industry 5.0 have to do with me?
TIM JAQUES: Yeah. That’s a great question, Bill. And, you know, it’s funny because I’ve asked this question before. When I really started digging into it, I have learned a lot about both where we’ve come from and where we’re going. And it is critically important for project managers today to understand that arc of where we’re going. And I’ll tell you why.
There are some key differences that are happening right now. First of all, the technology is changing, and it’s changing very rapidly. Everything from 3D printing, artificial intelligence is now kind of in the hands of the masses; right? So, any of us can go out there and create a Large Language Model and implement it and join multiple LLMs into different use cases. And so, this presents different roles for projects. This presents different capabilities for project managers, the types of backgrounds and skills and capabilities that we need in order to operate effectively in those environments.
And I would also just add that, you know, when we talk about building new bridges or constructing a new skyscraper, all of these things are now starting to use Industry 5.0-like technologies, smart technologies that are designed for easy human flow and for the cohabitation of technology and humans. So, in all of these different fields, not just IT development but in engineering fields and construction fields and manufacturing fields, Industry 5.0 is alive and well and growing. And so, project managers would do well to take heed of it.
Industry 4.0 vs. 5.0
BILL YATES: That’s good. Draw the line for us a little bit between 4.0 and 5.0. Help me understand, like, the difference from automation to where we’re headed now.
TIM JAQUES: Yeah. So, Industry 4.0 really began in the area of automation; right? So, if you think about things like robotic process automation, right, or also known as RPA; or where we begin to look at automated manufacturing, for example. Yeah, those are all the outcomes of Industry 4.0. And so, you know, we see things like much bigger data exchange happening in Industry 4.0. We see the Internet of Things going from the sort of small sideshow to truly the backbone of how we operate, and digital twinning and all of this. So, the way our electricity flows, and the way we get our services done from our local municipality and, you know, everything from smart city technologies to how we handle water and our trash, all of these things now are handled in the context of 4.0. We’re using Internet of Things. We’re using all these things.
Well, Industry 5.0 takes it a step further by emphasizing collaboration between humans and machines. And so, what we’re really trying to do is to strengthen the relationship between these advanced technologies like AI, robotics, big data, et cetera; and allowing for things like human creativity, expertise, ethics, and sustainability to come into this. So, in one sense it’s sort of very subtle, but there are some very discrete differences.
And I’ll give you one example. When you think about what a manufacturing robot does, think of an automated car process; right? You see these big robots on the side of a production line swinging around and picking up a piece and welding it to the body and, right, sparks flying and everything. Well, those machines are designed to operate like that. They’re very precise, and they’re repetitive, so that saves humans from having to do that work. But if a human were to step into the midst of that machine, the human would be injured immediately because those machines won’t stop. So, they put chicken fences around them for a reason.
Cobots
In 5.0 you get to this place where there is this concept of cobots. And cobots are really designed to operate around humans. So, you think of these prototype-like machines coming out. You know, Sony has one. There’s a bunch of them that are either designed for more industrial purposes or more sort of the end user, you know, humans like us, where these robots will move around us, and they will serve us in some way with human safety in mind. So those are some differences.
BILL YATES: Yeah, that’s good. And of course, my brain goes straight to R2-D2 and C-3PO, maybe some Roombas. I’ve seen that version for cutting the lawn as well, you know, the little self-automated autonomous lawnmower, you know. And it’s like, oh, that’s cool. What I’ve got in my house, now you can have that for your lawn, too. And it’s not going to, you know, run over my foot. So, we’re getting smarter and smarter with that automation and learning how to integrate it more closely.
TIM JAQUES: Yeah.
BILL YATES: Yeah, it is exciting. And it’s a little bit mind-numbing to think about, okay, for a project manager there are just so many things that are developing. To your point, you know, technology is changing so rapidly. It’s an exciting time, and a little bit intimidating in the same point.
Core Components of Industry 5.0
WENDY GROUNDS: Tim, can you talk about the core components of Industry 5.0, including sustainability?
TIM JAQUES: Sure. So, Industry 5.0, several key features are sort of inherent in Industry 5.0. First of all, like we’ve talked about, human-robot collaboration; right? So increasingly what we will see is repetitive tasks being handled by this. So, you might envision everything from how we load and unload airplanes, right, all of the things that happen there. And I don’t mean to scare any one industry or not, but there are changes that are coming; right? So how we do those kinds of heavy physical jobs, certainly warehouse operations, those kinds of things are even today being handled by cobots. And as well as on the manufacturing side, how items move through a build process. Those kinds of things are happening today.
But we also see things like personalization that can happen. So, using that example earlier, Bill, of my Roomba that’s going through my house and vacuuming, or my lawnmower that’s sort of doing, you know, it can mow the lawn without me, today those things are not as smart as we might think. They have some basic sensors, and they have an algorithm that they run through. But when they run into relatively simple obstacles, they can get easily hung up.
In the future state, what we might see is that these devices become much more personalized to our tastes. So how you might mow your lawn, you might know, oh, there’s some rocks in this area over here so I need to, like, raise the level of my lawnmower, or I need to take care in this area and go around this thing, even though they’re not immediately evident. And so, in the future these kinds of technologies would be able to understand that and apply that.
You know, one area I think today that’s very apparent with the sort of Industry 5.0 thinking that it’s a great example, and it has been around for a while, is in fashion, for example, AI – and we see this today in like Stitch Fix – they will, given our responses to a survey, it would recommend certain things that come back to us; right? Like, “Tim, you might like this kind of a shirt and this kind of pants.”
And, you know, now we can go through this algorithm that links our manufacturing side or our sourcing side; right? Where do we get those clothes from in my size with, on the other side, with how do we get that to Tim in a way that is efficient and sustainable and not shipping it from halfway around the world? So, these things happen today.
But the other part then that we can look at is we can have sort of fashion designers who are also influencing those algorithms and influencing that human interaction. So, you get me and a fashion person who is looking at my fashion needs, and then you get this very powerful algorithm that says, well, where do we source those from in a way that we can be profitable, and that we can make sure that Tim gets just those personalized clothes for him? So that personalization is another one.
Ethical Decision-Making and Sustainability
And let me just go through one more with you, which is ethical decision-making and sustainability.
BILL YATES: Yeah, it’s a big one.
TIM JAQUES: Huge one, yeah. And we can talk about this more. But I think that, as we begin to develop more profoundly disruptive kinds of technologies, you know, self-driving vehicles as they start to really become fully automated, the concept of an ethical framework being built into that is so important, and as well the sustainability of it.
So, in this world of 5.0, Industry 5.0, we start to see things like a circular economy, right, where we have pieces that are modular, that can be swapped in and out, so that you’re upcycling old things, refurbishing, but you’re able to keep the basic chassis, if you will, of whatever that product or service is. We see waste reduction and resource efficiency as in terms of sustainability. We see, indeed, even all the way up to the design phase, sustainable product design is very important. So, this concept of sustainability in project management becomes very important.
Customization and Sustainability
BILL YATES: Tim, the idea of customization is really intriguing to me. And when you were talking, describing before, I was thinking of, I had the chance to tour the Ford F-150 plant outside of Dearborn, Michigan. And we got to look down on that assembly line and seeing, there again, you had both robots and humans that were interacting, and they were putting together, assembling these completely customized Ford F-150s. That’s the piece that blew me away.
You know, they had the part showing up at the right point in the assembly to add to the chassis that were the right color, came from the same batch of, you know, painting that was done. If Tim said he wanted this package, everything you clicked on on the website when you made that order was there in the right place in that assembly line to be applied by the right person at the right time.
It was so impressive. I think it was less than one minute. I think every 50-something seconds a new Ford F-150, customized, came off of that line. And I’m looking at that and thinking, okay, there’s incredible efficiency here. There’s customization, so it’s personalized to the customer, their wants and needs. But there’s also the idea of sustainability. To me, it’s all harmonious because then it’s not like I’ve got 500 of the same-colored vehicle with the same customization sitting on a lot because nobody else wants it other than Bill. You know, he bought his one, and now I’ve got all this wasted material. So, there’s like a harmony between the ability to customize to that degree and be sustainable. Have you seen evidence of that, too? Can you speak to that in terms of some of the projects that you’ve seen?
TIM JAQUES: Yeah, great point and great question. And I love your example of the F-150. I believe it’s the highest selling vehicle…
BILL YATES: Yeah, best-selling.
TIM JAQUES: …in America, and maybe in the world. This is a vehicle that is for the masses; right? It’s such a versatile chassis, and they can do so many things with it. So, you know, just imagine having that problem set; right? How do we create it that every single vehicle has its own package that you can put to it in an automated line, and that we do this in a way that’s sustainable, that minimizes scrap. So, the impact there on the supply chain is huge because now we have this final stage supply chain that is very dynamic because we were picking and pulling from specific sub-assemblies to feed into this chassis. So, the sort of precision and customization are only going to continue from here on out.
I remember, believe it or not, I met one of the people who made the first business case, a project manager who made the first business case to the Ford senior leadership team to put in a USB port into a Ford car. And I believe it was in a Ford Taurus was the first one that it went into. And it was a huge deal. It cost something like $17 per vehicle at the time, which is an enormous cost to undertake into this vehicle. And Tauruses were very, very wide-selling, and there was a lot of concern about it. Well, look at today now; right?
BILL YATES: Yeah.
TIM JAQUES: We have charging, we have radar, we have all kinds of different technologies that are just going crazy. So certainly, that’s a great example. I think in things like healthcare, where we see Industry 5.0 kinds of different adoptions happening there; right? This idea of really truly personalized medicine that’s happening. 3D printing of meds is starting to be undertaken. Treatments that are tailored to specific genetic profiles, these kinds of things are where we’re seeing that.
Even in things like consumer goods, where we might see things like footwear that’s tailored right to my foot from the start; right? So, I’m not just ordering a Nike with like a gold stripe instead of the standard black, but I can actually have it do a foot impression and build the sneaker just exactly for my foot. So, in nearly every industry, including things like food and beverage, hospitality, et cetera, these things are starting to create differentiators.
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Emerging AI Project Tools
BILL YATES: Tim, I want to bring it back to the project manager day to day and just think, okay, you know, maybe the project manager is saying, yeah, Bill, Tim, that’s kind of interesting, but not in my industry, or not the types of projects that I’m doing. But talk a bit about AI, for the run-of-the-mill project that we may be in charge of right now, there are still things that we can take advantage of that Industry 5.0 brings up to us. So, let’s talk about AI, talk about some of the tools that are emerging now that can help any project manager.
TIM JAQUES: Great. AI in project management has several different perspectives that we can look at. One perspective is how can we apply Industry 5.0, artificial intelligence, machine learning, these kinds of things to the work that we do as project managers? And there are some very definite emerging ways that these things are getting used. And we’re starting to see them even in places like Microsoft Project and other tools. But, for example, automation of routine tasks; right? So, in project management we do status reports every week. We do schedule updates every week. These kinds of things, in some instances, in some environments, those updates can happen somewhat automatically.
But those tend to be in the realm of Industry 3.0. That is, it’s just straight computation. I’m pulling in data from timesheet data and updating, and then it might go into my earned value. But all of that needs a lot of manual work around it. In this new era, we’re going to start to see, using large language models, we can see things like issue escalation happening automatically, and schedule updates, and status reports starting to get generated automatically. And those large language models get better and better as they are more focused on the specific types of projects and whatnot.
I think we also see things like risk management happening. This is particularly in projects over, you know, 5 million, $10 million or euros, you know, what we might see is much more sophisticated, predictive types of algorithms. And this is especially important when we’re looking at things like weather and supply chains and disruptions based on news reports and things like that. Things that we don’t typically, you know, we might do some accounting for, but these can add to it. And so, in an Industry 5.0 world, especially when you have multiple types of planning roles, the predictive capabilities that can be enhanced through more advanced risk management algorithm, and really that’s customized for that particular environment, it’s very powerful. It can save time and resource and create better outcomes.
Now, of course, also there could be things like communication, collaboration tools that might happen with this. You know, today, I look at most of these – most of these chatbots that are out there, they’re somewhat annoying; you know?
BILL YATES: Yeah.
TIM JAQUES: Especially if you’re on the consumer end, trying to sort of get an answer done.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
TIM JAQUES: I recently chatbotted with a particular airline, I won’t say which one, and I was trying to inquire as to like what kind of ticket I had and what was – I needed to get it refunded. And I was looking to get it just refunded back to my card, but they wanted to do a voucher. But the chatbot kept giving me information about my baggage. They thought I was asking about my baggage. These are common everyday occurrences. I think this kind of thing will get better over time.
Innovative Mindset for Project Managers
BILL YATES: Yeah, these are frustrations, yeah, yeah. One thing I wanted to ask you, Tim, because of the depth of experience and knowledge you’ve had in project management, there’s this idea that, okay, because of Industry 5.0, because of what we’re going into in terms of technology and the capabilities that are there, you know, you’ve just mentioned a number of ways, a number of tools that should free up time for project managers in the future.
And one of the things that you’ve written about is how innovation should be a part of our job as a project manager. We should always be looking for better ways, new ways, you know, kind of being curious. And I just wanted you to speak to that a bit, just to challenge us as project managers. Why is innovation important? What steps can we take to make sure that we’re not getting stale in our profession?
TIM JAQUES: That’s great. Yeah, this is an area that’s close to my heart because I believe that project management is in a transition point. There’s a lot of competing roles in the space of design, development, and delivery that are not specifically technology oriented. So, there are things like business analysts, which is kind of a legacy role. Then there are designers. There are innovation experts. Even today we see emerging, you know, things like large language model trainers. There are these sort of new roles that are shaping out in complex environments. Our work has become increasingly complex, as well; right?
BILL YATES: Yeah.
TIM JAQUES: A typical engineering project at five or $10 million is just an enormously complex endeavor combining technology and physical materials. The types of materials are changing every day; right? The procurement processes are oftentimes in larger organizations more complex than ever. And so, as we operate in these models, I think it’s incumbent upon us to really think about what are we bringing to that game? How are we creating more sustainability? How are we creating better outcomes for our customers and for the end users? What does project management specifically add to it?
And I will say this. In many environments, particularly I think in the IT world, if you’re sort of an IT project manager, we become, or we have become, note takers. And we’ve become meeting makers. You know? So, these sort of like glorified facilitators who kind of just make the meetings and take the notes. And it’s not true everywhere.
BILL YATES: Right.
TIM JAQUES: At all. Like there are huge organizations out there where they really rely on their project managers, and those project managers have profit and loss accountabilities and things like that. But I think that this is a risk, that as Industry 5.0 promotes bigger and better technologies, we have to rethink what is our role in that, in that value stream? You know, if I’m thinking it through, I’m thinking about like going from task execution to strategic oversight.
BILL YATES: Yes.
TIM JAQUES: Yeah, we really have to be thinking about these kinds of things, thinking about creativity, innovation; right? So, you know, do we widen our toolkit now with innovative processes? Typically, as I see it, projects are introduced in the world as we apply project management frameworks to reduce risk, to create better outcomes. So why have a schedule? Why have a risk register and log and all this stuff? Well, we do that because we want to make sure that, if we’re just going to build this thing, you know, it’s a one-time thing. It’s a beginning, middle, and end unique outcome. We want to make sure that it’s successful.
Well, on the other hand you have innovation, which is really about opening up. Now, you know, we can reduce our risk in innovation, for sure. But to me, traditionally we have – there’s always been this sort of gap between the project managers who are trying to sort of put firm boundaries around a thing, and the innovators who are trying to say, well, what if? Where could we go? And having those skill sets be more blended, I think, bodes well in this high-tech world of the future.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
TIM JAQUES: So, yeah, so innovation is absolutely key for the success and an innovative mindset for project managers.
Adding Value as a PM
BILL YATES: And Tim, I see that as such a good thing. I know for some listening, it’s like, yeah, but I’m comfortable, you know, nailing the scope and delegating the task, coming up with a complete list of all that needs to be done, and then delegating those tasks and making sure that people are accountable. And yeah, and that’s all good, and there’s a place for that.
But I think the point is to a keyword that you use, value. You know, as a project manager, how am I adding value, and how can I add more value in the next project, and the one after that, and the one after that? And the degree to which we can either take advantage of tools or just take advantage of the competency and maturity of our team to spend less time delegating, less time breaking down task and doing some of that blocking and tackling, and more time having strategic thought and thinking like an innovator.
Think about all the project managers you’ve spoken with who have said, “Man, I would love it if I could just take, you know, two hours off and have a deeper conversation with some of my customers to figure out which ones of these features we’re looking at would add the most value. But I just don’t have time, and I’ve got too many things I’ve got to do.” We have to hit the pause button. We have to call a time-out and say, all right, why don’t you have that time? How much more value would it add if you were able to have that strategic conversation with those customers? And where would your product be, you know, a year from now or three versions from now if you were able to do that?
TIM JAQUES: Absolutely, Bill. That is such a great point. What was going through my mind as you were saying that is this notion of creativity. I think that a lot of what I have seen from many project managers is we lose that element. In all of our scoping and managing scope creep and managing a budget and all that, we lose this element of deep creativity. And in Industry 5.0, we really want to make sure that we are bringing creativity to those solutions because we don’t understand where they can go. We don’t know how the users are going to use them. You know, concurrent with all this is an evolution to sort of platform thinking, right, and ecosystem kind of thinking. We see this happening right now all the time. Nobody wants an app anymore. Everybody wants an ecosystem.
And so, there’s a lot to that; right? And when we’re building into these sort of complex business models, we need to continuously bring our A game as it relates to precision and accuracy, creativity, as we’re thinking about differentiators and scalability, all these different things. I think that there’s a lot there for project managers to sort of reshape their role; right? We’re really there to oversee the success of this. So, we can’t just be thinking about the Iron Triangle.
BILL YATES: Yeah, the Iron Triangle, sure. Yeah, yeah.
Upskilling for Industry 5.0
WENDY GROUNDS: For the project managers listening to us, and they’re thinking, is Industry 5.0 going to create jobs for me, or is it going to cause unemployment? And perhaps there’s some up-skilling that a project manager needs to do to be properly trained to be able to transition into 5.0? So, looking at the project manager who’s asking those questions, how would you address what the future looks like for them in 5.0?
TIM JAQUES: Great question, Wendy. Thank you. So, I do believe that Industry 5.0 technologies are going to reshape industries. They are going to result in a shift in how we employ people and in the types of roles that we use. And I don’t know all of that. There are people out there who do nothing but study that from an economic standpoint, from a job’s perspective. There’s an element of it that I think can be very scary.
But also, I think there’s a very big opportunity mindset that we can take on this. And the opportunity for project managers in particular is I think that the world right now is obsessed with “new.” The new things are coming online faster than we can blink our eyes at. And project managers who can continue to work in those areas, who can evolve in those areas, are going to be rewarded. There’s going to be a lot of work for us as we understand how those technologies and humans interact.
I’ll give you one quick example. Today there are several proprietary ethical models out there, and a few that are like publicly based standards, like the World Health Organization has one, and others that I think they just issued theirs earlier this year. But these ethical models as it relates to AI are very important. The U.S. federal government has, you know, created a whole playbook around this. And now individual agencies, federal agencies are developing their own models around AI, and the provenance of large language models, how you take one large language model and either link it to another or mold it into another so you’re merging data sets. These are very big questions. And I think that project managers who begin to work in those areas will be in high demand going forward.
So yes, there is a lot of ways to view what happens. But here’s the other thing I would say is, just from a basic understanding of a perspective, I think that there are some things that project managers can do today as we’re starting to hear about these technologies coming in. All over the world, executives are going, “Give me one of those cobots. Give me a 3D printer,” you know, without really knowing what those things are.
What I always recommend is this. It’s sort of a three- or four-step thing. One is, you know, assess the current environment and identify those opportunities for automation. And there are tools out there that folks can use. Integrate in a human-centric design approach into that; right? Be sure this is not about just rolling out 3D printers. This is about how do humans and 3D printers work together, or whatever the technology is. We want to leverage AI for enhanced decision-making.
So, we want our governance, and our executive investment and decision-making functions need to become more sophisticated. And that’s an area that project managers can very much help with in the context of your own project, and maybe even more globally, if you have that kind of access. But figuring out how do we make decisions around these complex data sets; right? Because ultimately a lot of this comes down to the data and how we use that data. And then of course we want to focus on sustainability and ethical decision-making in these new technologies.
And I think there, there are some very clear standards that are emerging today, one of which is the IPMA Guide to Sustainability. It’s just coming out, and it’s a wonderful way to look at how do we integrate project management and sustainability. What are the principles that we need? What are the best practices that are inherent in the world? And I think every project manager in the future will need to be armed with a sound background in sustainability to be able to operate more fully because we can’t just ignore the waste that comes out of these big projects. Certainly Industry 5.0 has a lot of waste right now. There’s a ton of electricity usage in running large language models. And how we can start to minimize those things in production lines and in other areas is going to be really important going forward.
International Project Management Association
BIILL YATES: Tim, those are great points. Now, you mentioned four letters, IPMA. I’m familiar with it. Describe to people what IPMA is, and then your involvement with IPMA.
TIM JAQUES: Terrific. I am so thrilled to talk about IPMA. IPMA is the International Project Management Association. We are a global organization founded in 1965 in Switzerland, and it has grown since then to be a 70-plus country organization. It’s a federation of individual member associations. And each member association is associated with a country. So here in the USA, we have IPMA-USA. And as a member organization, we get to participate with all of these other countries in developing standards, in creating best practices. And so, for example, the sustainability guide that’s coming out right now was the work of many different member associations getting together, finding experts in those areas and bringing them together into a working group.
In IPMA-USA right now, we are creating a working group that is the future of project management. And we’re bringing together many other member associations to build a framework around what does project management look like in the future. And we’re just interested in that. I think one of the differentiators for IPMA generally is that we are very research focused. We want to understand how are these practices and these new trends and technologies and all these things that are happening in the world right now, what happens to them in the context of a project? There’s a big body of research happening around the world in various universities and organizations, big companies, where they’re actually looking at that specifically around project management.
BILL YATES: Oh, yeah.
TIM JAQUES: Yeah, we’re at the forefront of that.
IPMA Certifications
BILL YATES: That’s powerful. So IPMA versus PMI. PMI, it’s pretty funny, the dates are pretty similar; right? They both started, I think in the ‘60s, around, you know, around the same time. One of the biggest differences for me is PMI, there’s a central organization, versus the decentralized approach that IPMA takes, like per country. Also, just real briefly, you know, PMI, most of our listeners are familiar with the PMP certification. They’ve either survived that exam and earned it, or they’ve got friends who have mentioned it or whatever. So that’s a very popular global certification. IPMA also has certifications. Just describe those different levels, kind of the main four or so that they have.
TIM JAQUES: Yeah, and I will say this. I am the president of IPMA USA. I am also a proud member of PMI. And I am a PMP. I have been since 2003. And so, I think that these organizations kind of bring different and equally wonderful things to the forefront. IPMA has a four-level certification, and they are called IPMA Level D, Level C, Level B, and Level A. And what these are meant to impart is a sense of where we are individually in our careers. So, I like to think of it as, you know, when I started my career as a project manager, I had a very small project; right? It was $50,000 total budget, a few stakeholders, relatively simple. And I struggled with it; right? It was a big job for me.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
TIM JAQUES: But in the big scheme of things, it was very small. But as I’ve grown, as I’ve evolved in my skill set, my competencies, I have worked my way up. And now I’m running big projects that are very complex. And so that four-level certification is meant to reflect that evolution so that you as an employer can know where your people are in terms of their evolution, as well as, as an individual, I can get a very clear sense of, you know, where I am today and where I’d like to go in my career.
BILL YATES: So, Tim, quick question on this. If I’m hearing you right, D is like a beginner. So, D has maybe less complex projects, and then moving on down C, B, and then A. A is the highest level of complexity; is that right?
TIM JAQUES: That’s correct, Bill. So, the way it works is Level C is somewhat equivalent to the PMP. It is more of a knowledge-based exam. And we use a different set of standards than PMI does. We have our own standards. Our standards are based in something called the Individual Competence Baseline version 4.0, which actually I had a hand in writing. What it does is it identifies 28 competence elements and 132 key competence indicators. So, what this means is that they’re all nested within each other.
So, there are three big areas that kind of we look at. One is called People, one is called Practice, and one is called Perspective. And then within those are the 28 competence elements. And each one of those looks at things like stakeholder engagement; or, you know, time management is another one. That falls under Practice. Strategy falls under the competence area of Perspective. So Perspective, People, and Practice are the three big umbrella areas. And then within that are competence elements. And within that are these key competence indicators.
So, in our assessment process for certification, we look at these areas to say, well, where are you with these? Have you done that kind of work? Have you worked in strategy at all? And how far have you gone with it? We look at those actual detailed key competence indicators.
And so, you know, Level D, it’s more of a knowledge-based exam. Do you know what these things are? In a Level C, it’s more of an assessment plus the exam. Level B is much more of the assessment, much less of the exam. And Level A is truly, you know, you’re at the strategic level of an organization and managing it at that level. It’s a practice; right? We’re never meant to be the champion of all of these 28 competence elements. It’s really like, in our careers, we’re just trying to develop these things more over time. And so, this provides really like a map for an individual to continuously develop their knowledge, skills, and abilities.
BILL YATES: Well, Tim, that’s a great high-level look at IPMA. I think you’ve probably introduced a new resource to some listeners who just haven’t heard about it, or maybe they’ve heard somebody mention it in passing and not really known, you know, how it compares to their experience with PMI. Two associations, both focused on helping us as project managers get better. And I’m all about that. So, thank you for sharing that resource.
How to Get Involved
WENDY GROUNDS: If a project manager wants to get involved, are there regional or local chapters where they can get involved?
TIM JAQUES: Sure. So, in IPMA-USA, we are chapter-free. We are a fully virtual organization, and anyone who’s interested can go to IPMA-USA.org. And the beauty of this is that we bring together people from different industries, backgrounds, cultures. And so typically, on any one of our working groups, you might see somebody from India and somebody from Sweden. Right? Even in the USA, we’ll be pulling those folks in. From the UK, et cetera. So, we really try to find who are the experts in these areas, and let’s bring them together. And even if you’re not an expert, but you want to learn, there’s something for you.
Find Out More
WENDY GROUNDS: Tim, if our listeners want to hear more about what you do, they want to find out more about Industry 5.0, where should they go?
TIM JAQUES: I have a great place that they can go, which is to our conference in April of next year.
BILL YATES: Ah.
TIM JAQUES: Shameless plug time.
WENDY GROUNDS: Shameless plug.
BILL YATES: Click here.
TIM JAQUES: Yeah, exactly. Right? Yeah. IPMA-USA hosts a research conference in conjunction with the University of Maryland Clark School of Engineering. This happens in College Park, Maryland. And this year the focus is on Industry 5.0. So, if you are somebody who works in that field, and you want to present, we would love to hear from you. If you’re somebody who’s interested in learning about it, come onboard. I believe our website will be up soon. But just know for now, place hold April 29th and 30th, 2025, College Park, Maryland. It’s a lot of fun and we’d love to see everyone there.
BILL YATES: That’s terrific. Tim, we’ve explored two pretty different topics, but I don’t know, they’re very related – it’s almost like we combined two podcasts into one. Thank you for doing that with us. Thank you for giving us a summary of IPMA and a sense for that resource. And we especially appreciate the chance to think about Industry 5.0 and the impact that it has on project managers, what we should be aware of, where we should look for value, where we can get wiser in what we’re doing. So really appreciate that. Thank you for your time. Obviously, you’re doing a lot of volunteering, too. So, we appreciate all the work you’re doing with IPMA and giving back the way you are.
TIM JAQUES: Well, thank you both so much. I appreciate you inviting me onto this great podcast, and I look forward to continuing the relationship. Thanks, Bill; and thanks, Wendy.
Closing
WENDY GROUNDS: That’s it for us here on Manage This. Thank you for joining us today. You can visit us at Velociteach.com, where you can also subscribe to this podcast and see a complete transcript of the show.
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